Public "Advanced" Dances....Yea or Nay?

6/12/2013

(Perhaps this should be subtitled, "In Which The Blogger Kicks A Hornet Nest.")

There are various threads around the web lately about outreach to new dancers (and ways to revamp how we approach beginners), or the importance of feeding your local dance community as well as the snazzy dance weekends that tend to self-select for advanced dancers.

I've gotten into conversations with folks about public advanced dances lately as well. To be clear, I'm not talking about private parties, dance weekends, many one-off techno contras, or all-day days of dance (all of which tend to self-select for advanced dancers). I'm referring to the regular nights of dancing (~3 hours) that are publicly advertised, but are advertised as "experienced dancers only please; new dancers are welcome next week" types of things.

I'm actually wondering a bit about their existence in the first place. I have yet to hear a reason for them (and here's where y'all can help me) that doesn't boil down to some variant of, "...because dancing with newbies sucks."

It's also entirely possible that I'm missing something here, and that there is an angle of this that I have overlooked entirely. (I hope so; I'm having a viscerally negative reaction to the reason cited above.)

So I'm using one of the perks of being a blogger and crowd-sourcing this for my own edification: if you're in favor of publicly-advertised "advanced-dancer only" dances, could you kindly clarify why? I want to see both sides of it.

Full disclosure: Steve and I did not go to the one-off "advanced dance" at Glen Echo last month, but that was more a result of its happening when we had other stuff going on than really a conscious choice either way (beyond "we are not cancelling our previously-made plans in order to attend").

bahrainkayaker

6/11/2013 06:52:37 pm

As we nourish new dancers, we should also nourish experienced dancers. Not all experienced dancers can afford the drive/time/dollar commitment for a dance weekend or "all day" dance. Occasional advanced dances nourish their souls.

Ryan (blogger) link

6/12/2013 02:32:16 am

This is where that "hornet's nest" comment comes in....

From what I see though, it feels like this argument comes down to "advanced dancers need advanced-dancer-only events because those feed their souls...and by extension, beginner-welcome dances don't."

This is one of those "...because dancing with beginners sucks"-type arguments that I am having trouble reacting to in a productive manner. I suspect there's a level of nuance here that I'm just not understanding. Could you try and clarify this a bit more for me please?

Kate

6/11/2013 10:45:16 pm

I can definitely see what bahrainkayaker is saying above, and I'd have to agree... to a point. I would hope dances like that aren't happening often. Maybe once a quarter? I think we should be encouraging new people to come and bringing them up to be great dancers that we WANT to dance with. It brings me joy to get a new person into contra.

I've never personally encountered a full 3-hour "advanced dancers only" dance in my community, but a few times a year my local dance has a special event on a Saturday in which, if you come early, there's a 1.5-2 hour "advanced" dance, then a potluck, then the regular public 3-hour dance.

Rob Malerman link

6/12/2013 01:50:07 am

At Vince Budnick's Technoberfest two years ago (or was it three) there was an interesting variant on the issue. There were three lines and the caller explained that the third was a Kaos set, and that if you didn't know what a kaos set was, you probably shouldn't be in it.

Now as to the rest of the post.... I don't have my bee keeper suit handy so even outspoken I dare not venture into that vicinity.

Ryan (blogger) link

6/12/2013 02:41:24 am

I know about the chaos sets, and I was at Technoberfest (October 2011) so I know what you're referring to.

Somehow to me it seems different when it's one line, one (or two) dances, versus an entire session, but you bring up a really good point about chaos lines. (I've talked about chaos/shenanigans lines at length before on this blog, but you bring up a point here that I hadn't considered before, thank you!)

My position on this whole concept of advanced dances is malleable at this point, hence the query. Fortunately, people are being pretty civil about it (thus far at least -- hope it stays that way) and offering some good insights.

Jaie link

6/12/2013 01:52:20 am

It is vitally important to keep dancing with new dancers! I'm one of the people in our local dance who will seek out first-time dancers and invite them to dance and learn. AND...

I also know that for me, dance can become a moving meditation, but only when everyone is in step and has that confidence level. When I don't hit that for months at a time at our local dance, I start jonesing for a deeper experience. I would like that nurturing.

I get that when we go to Folklife, or go in to Seattle for a Friday dance. I did Dancing Fool one year, which was fun and yet at the same time, overwhelming.

I would echo Kate's comments, above, where there's a short 'advanced' segment, then a potluck (how many of us would like to just hang out and get to know the people we dance with?) and then more dancing. It might even let newer dancers know that, 'hey, there's something to aspire to'. Who knows?

To help new dancers grow, I would encourage new people to keep coming to the pre-dance workshops, because you learn different things from different callers, and everyone has their own teaching style. Just an observation I've made lately.

Thank you!

Ryan (blogger) link

6/12/2013 02:44:04 am

You're right, more dancers should keep going to the new dancer workshops -- I did for quite a while, and then I stopped. I've been meaning to start going more often again and really ought to put more energy into doing so....

Perry

6/12/2013 03:29:49 am

Ryan - a REALLY good question worth discussing. It has been a hard question for me (I didn't click but you may have been referring to the thread that I started.) I DID go to the advanced dance last month and had a real good time dancing dances that we don't usually do. But then things happen when new or new-ish dancers show up - they tend to break things up if they don't know what they are doing. I am against exclusive events but I am also for dances that challenge people. At River Falls in SC and at OFB in NC, they occasionally have advanced dances and they are billed as "for experienced dancers only, beginners not recommended" or something to that effect. Now I don't have any idea what happens if new dancers come - are they strongly discouraged from attending? HOW strongly? And quite honestly, I've seen many a challenging dance break down due to confusion by EXPERIENCED dancers. And those advanced dances that encourage newbies to come, then callers kind of dumb down their dances to make them not so challenging, losing its appeal as an advanced dance.

It's a tough dilemma. I personally happen to believe that, with a good caller that can teach things well, AND a community with the desire to guide newcomers (or perpetual newbies who think they are experienced enough), you can call a hard dance with some success, provided you gradually lift their skills during the evening by introducing new elements dance-by-dance.

Of course dances here aren't all that challenging anymore - but when I started dancing a thousand years ago, the Sunday dance was known as "the advanced dance". I was kind of discouraged from going until I went to enough Friday dances that I knew my stuff. Gradually that changed and now we have a workshop on Sundays and more new dancers than there were a decade ago. And I think some of the callers are aware of that but I think some travelling callers who come through still see Sunday as the advanced dance. True, the degree of newbies is smaller than on Fridays but they are there.

New dancer workshops are an entirely different topic entirely. Yes experienced dancers should come to those but I'd like people to treat them AS new dancer workshops, and nix the twirling in its entirely so as not to confuse the new dancers. It is one of my pet peeves when teaching the ladies chain and showing them how to do a courtesy turn and then some yay-hoo decides to show them how great twirling is BEFORE they can get the courtesy turn right.

Cindi Rixey Scott

6/12/2013 11:57:50 pm

CFOOTMAD (Colorado Friends of Old Time Music and Dance) offers dances in Denver, Westminster (greater Denver metro area and Boulder. Two dances are at a Masonic hall in Denver. Two are at the amazing Avalon Ballroom in Boulder. The Westminster dance is once a month in a grange hall and is more a "community barn dance." A Zesty (advanced dance) is offered once a month at the Denver Parks and Recreation community room. I understand there was quite a discussion years ago when the Zesty was introduced. Please know that it my opinion if a dancer has attended two or three contra dancers he/she is most likely ready for the Zesty as the experienced dancers really carry someone new to contra dancing along. It also really improves the skill level of a newer dancer in a shorter period of time. In my opinion the best contra dancers are those who seek out the new dancers at a dance with am aim to give the new dancer encouragement and a smooth dance experience so that the dancer gets "Oh, I can actually do this and it is fun." Sometimes referred to as dance angels, these experienced dances are ambassadors for the contra dance experience. And, while fun, it takes work and is more physically demanding. The Zesty dance is a time for these dancers to dance with more abandon. Kicking the hornet's nest further, I'd even venture to say it is a reward. CFOOTMAD, together with Fort Collins FOTD, is also fortunate to bring in nationally touring bands two to three times a year. The schedule is typically a Friday night Boulder dance, Saturday night Fort Collins dance, and Sunday afternoon advanced dance. This gives local dancers an opportunity to dance to these super talented bands without the expense of traveling afar or registration cost of a dance weekend.. It is also very special and a different feel to dance with one's local dance community, including never ever dancers, to bands like The Mean Lids, Perpetual e-motion, Nor'easter, Contrazz, Syncopaths, Great Bear Trio and others. If you've read this far ... Dancing in the chaos line at the Soccorro, New Mexico dance weekend over Memorial Day was the most exhilarating dancing I have experienced for a long time. It was only offered for one dance in a self-selecting line during the dance weekend. I'm hoping overtime we can offer a chaos line at our Zesty dance. Come dance with us in Colorado!

Ryan (blogger) link

6/17/2013 12:42:18 pm

"The Zesty dance is a time for these dancers to dance with more abandon. Kicking the hornet's nest further, I'd even venture to say it is a reward."

Hmm. Lots to think about in that comment -- thank you for taking the time to respond.

We have "dance buddies" at Glen Echo who seem to operate on a similar concept as the "dance angels" out your way. They're volunteer positions, although the folks I've tended to see wearing those pins are the same folks every week.**

Following your line, though, I'm curious: would the "advanced" dances' bar to entry be as "necessary" if the community figured out a way to NOT have the handful of "dance angels" be the only folks asking the new dancers to dance (which also implies that they're doing stuff that no one else wants to do, see the "dancing with newbies sucks" issue raised in the entry)?

The model you describe sounds a bit like parents wrangling children (wonderful, rewarding, sure, but only the parents are ultimately responsible for the kids and every now and then they need a night out and away from said kids to recharge their batteries). Would it be as big of an issue if instead of a parental model, there was a more community-oriented model (where everyone made a point of dancing with at least one new dancer every evening, so that everyone could have at least a handful of "reward" dances in a given night, rather than confining them to a "zesty" event)?

Full disclosure, I'm not sure how one would go about making this happen; at least at Glen Echo, I'm pretty confident that no amount of "go dance with someone new!" imploring is likely to make the people who only select partners from the same pool of 12 (or fewer) every week go seek out new dancers.

Maybe more questions than answers, but while we're poking at hornet's nests maybe that's one worth examining.

**(I've never worn the pin, but I usually do try to spot new dancers and have a mix of new and experienced dancer partners over the course of an evening. Sometimes I'm more successful than others, and I'll own that.)

Jennifer

6/20/2013 10:18:29 pm

I haven't ever gone to a specifically-designated advanced dance, though I've been to an evening dance at a dance weekend and a recent techno contra. In my local group, I'm probably considered "advanced" but in other places I've still got some ways to go.

I've never heard of a "chaos" set, but it seems like a great thing to add to a regular contra in order to give newbies a chance to see what more advanced dancing can look like -- and maybe to give it a whirl. I think it could also be fun to have a short advanced "workshop" in the middle of a dance just to get folks who are warmed up and ready to learn something new a chance to give something new a try. (I love learning new flourishes but don't often get a chance to practice them if I have to concentrate on helping a new-to-contra partner or to help keep a set in order.)

So while there's some selfishness in the attitude, some of that is probably a "good" selfishness of those who are trying to challenge themselves to learn more. And while we're happy to help newbies, sometimes we'd also like to help ourselves. :-)

Christine

9/21/2013 07:47:20 am

Here in Concord, MA, there is 2 regular dances each week, Monday and Thursday, that welcomes all levels.
On First Friday's, during the "school year", there is offered an "advanced only" contra. This is on a different night than the "regular" dances, so that newbies don't have to feel like they can't come to any given regular dance.
As one who has been dancing for nearly 30 years, and have raised my sons in the tradition (only one still dances), I like the option of going to an advanced dance, as it keeps my brain more engaged in the dancing, than on a regular night.
A good caller will gauge a regular dance from easy at the beginning of the night, to let the newbies get a good feel for the dance, and feel that they can actually do this, to harder dances toward the end of the night (but not too hard as to leave less experienced dancers feeling confused)
I feel that experienced only dances are good for the dance community.
If you want to bring a friend, go to the regular dance series, where newbies are welcomed and the dancing is geared toward learning.

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Public "Advanced" Dances....Yea or Nay?

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